Bullish on oil and agricultural commodities

TGR: Are we at the tipping point?

DC: Yes, we’ve absolutely gone over the edge. The consumer is no longer in a position to consume. Everybody is going to cut consumption to the bone and hopefully find something to produce instead. It would be better for people to start viewing themselves as producers than consumers. That would be a step in the right direction to get them psychologically more in line with reality.

TGR: In last fall’s meltdown, gold held up, but the stocks didn’t. Quite a few producers and soon-to-be producers, and some companies making discoveries, seem to have bottomed out in November and December. But worry persists in the market. Suppose another shoe drops or another black swan appears? Richard Russell (Dow Theory Letters) and others have been talking about the Dow going down to 5,000. What would that do to the gold stocks?

DC: Gold stocks are also stocks, and the best environment for gold stocks historically has always been when both gold and the stock market are going up. But since the last gold stock bull market came to an end, I think it’s entirely possible to see a bubble develop in gold stocks with all the money being created. I certainly hope so. I’m actually optimistic for gold stocks just because they’re so cheap relative to everything else.

TGR: They have been beaten down.

DC: Yes. And that fact, along with the waves of money being printed around the world and the much higher gold prices we are going to see, could cause a speculative mania to develop in the gold stocks. Nobody’s even thinking about that possibility right now, because they’re so battered. But this is the time to get into the right ones because it’s likely to happen in the future.

TGR: The “29 crash” which was really the preamble, because ‘30, ‘31, ‘32 and ‘33 were certainly bigger, is when gold stocks such as Homestake did their best. How do you see that playing out this time around? Is it different this time or do you expect a similar pattern?

DC: You know what they say, History doesn’t repeat itself, but it rhymes. I think that, first of all, the gold mining industry is a much worse industry now than it’s ever been in the past, because just as all the easily defined light sweet oil basically has been discovered, all the easy-to-find high-grade gold basically has been discovered. Most mines that are going into production are low-grade, which means that you have to move a lot of dirt, which means that they’re much more capital-intensive than in the past. So gold mining’s a worse industry from that point of view.

Also, politically speaking, with the rise of the green movement, there are people who don’t want any oil burned, any dirt moved, any trees cut. They don’t want to see anything happen. This makes it much harder to do gold from a permitting and political point of view. We’re in a much higher tax environment than in the past. So it’s a tough industry. It really is. It’s just a 19th century choo-choo train type of industry that interests me only as a speculative vehicle. You’ll notice that gold went from lows of about $300 to highs of about $900 and none of these gold companies are making any money because their costs actually went up faster than the price of gold. So I’m not saying gold mining is a great business. It’s not. It’s a crappy business. Still, we could have a bubble in the stocks. I’m hoping we do.

TGR: Aren’t we going to see a change in that in ‘09? Oil, which is one of the large components of that cost, has come down dramatically. A lot of these producers must be locking in oil at these lower prices. Won’t that translate into year-over-year earnings increases for the gold producers?

DC: That’s possible. The producers actually may show increases for the next couple of years. I don’t doubt that. But I don’t think oil will stay where it is. I think oil’s eventually headed back to $150 a barrel or more.

TGR: So why wouldn’t you own oil as well as gold?

DC: It’s a good idea, but we weren’t really talking about oil. I’d say that oil is a good thing to own. Oil is a real buy now. It’s as good a buy at $40 as gold is at $900 right now. Maybe a better buy; who knows?

TGR: If we go into worldwide depression, will oil continue to be a good buy or will it self-regulate around this $40 a barrel?

DC: I am bullish on oil. Although I’m philosophically not very sympathetic to the peak oil theory, I think it’s a geological fact. Also, China and India and the other developing parts of the world don’t use a whole lot of oil now. As they develop, they will want to and almost need to use a lot more oil. That’s going to keep pressure up on the demand side. But the supply side actually finally is constrained, so it’s going to mean higher prices. In a depression-type environment, U.S. and Western oil consumption could drop a lot, but the third world would take up most of that slack. So I have to be bullish on oil.

TGR: Are you bullish on any other sectors or commodities?

DC: I’m bullish on agricultural commodities. They ran way up last year and then collapsed again. I think a good case can be made that most of the soft commodities are quite cheap and will go higher, so I’d look at those, too. I think gold definitely, oil in the years to come has the potential to go much, much higher, and the agricultural commodities have a lot of potential.

TGR: Gold appears to be uncoupling from the dollar. Historically, when the dollar was strong, gold would be weak. But we’ve had a couple of recent instances in which both the dollar and gold have been strong. Obviously, we’ve seen a total decoupling of gold from oil. It used to be when oil was running, gold was running and vice versa, but that no longer seems to be the case. Is that just an old wives’ tale or is something going on?

DC: I’ve never seen any necessary relationship between gold and oil, just like there’s no necessary relationship between rice and natural gas, or nickel and soybeans. All these commodities tend to move together, all the currencies tend to move together and stock markets tend to move together, but they all have their own dynamics. I think it makes sense to compare the relative prices of various commodities and see what may be cheap or dear relative to other things based on the fundamentals.

On any given day, somebody may have to buy or somebody may have to sell a huge amount of almost anything. It’s unpredictable and you can’t tell what constraints are out there in the market. I don’t even pay attention to day-to-day fluctuations because they’re just random noise. I watch the big trend. It’s been shown that if you just made one correct trade and stuck with it at the beginning of every decade for the last four decades, you would have realized something like 1,000 times on your money. To me, this is the proper approach to the markets, not to try to second-guess from day-to-day what’s going to happen. That’s foolish because you get chewed up with commissions and bid-ask spreads and double-thinking your own psychology and so forth.

I really just like to look at long-term trends. In terms of long-term trends, you’ve got to be long gold, long silver, long oil; you’ve got to be short bonds. I think that’s really all you need to know. The other things we mentioned such as agricultural commodities and so forth are worthy of attention. But, as I said, I’m not a day-to-day trader. I think that’s very foolish.

TGR: Are these the themes that you and your group of speakers will focus on in Las Vegas?

DC: They are. I certainly want to invite anybody who reads this interview to join us. We put on very small, very classy seminars. They’re not gigantic mob scenes, so it’s possible to get to know individual speakers and fellow attendees in a very collegial atmosphere. I think it’s something that anybody who’s seriously interested in these kinds of things should consider.

The Casey Research Crisis & Opportunity Summit, will be held March 20 – 22, 2009, at the Four Seasons Resort in Las Vegas.